WARREN: Mr. Kouzoukas, you sit on the board of Clover Well being, a for-profit insurance coverage firm that in line with its most up-to-date SEC submitting, receives a “substantial portion” of its whole income from Medicare Benefit premiums. How a lot are you paid on your work at Clover?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, I’m paid in accordance with the corporate’s course of for–
WARREN: Okay, and what’s the greenback quantity? That’s what I’m asking.
KOUZOUKAS: Effectively, there’s a, uh, portion of the compensation that [unintelligible]
WARREN: So, you don’t know the quantity that you simply’re getting paid from Clover?
KOUZOUKAS: I do, Senator.
WARREN: Then how about you inform me?
KOUZOUKAS: Effectively, there’s a portion that pertains to the–
WARREN: Might I’ve a greenback quantity, please?
KOUZOUKAS: It additionally is dependent upon the 12 months and the time–
WARREN: Okay, you probably did a monetary disclosure final 12 months. Would you want to inform me what you mentioned in your monetary disclosure, which you signed underneath oath?
KOUZOUKAS: I imagine, Senator, as specified by your letter, you identified to the cost that was from Clover for, with reference to 2022, and the compensation therein being within the class of $100,000.
WARREN: Okay. So, you obtained $100,000 from Clover on your service. And if confirmed as a public trustee, do you propose to give up the Clover board?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, I recognize the chance to deal with your query.
WARREN: Uh, it’s very easy. You’ll be able to say “Sure” or you possibly can say “No.”
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, the function of the trustees of the Social Safety–
WARREN: Is {that a} sure or a no? Do you propose to give up the job for which you have been paid $100,000 a 12 months?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, I’m grateful to the president and his group for the evaluate of my credentials and {qualifications}–
WARREN: I imply, actually?! You know you’re gonna must reply this query. Is it sure or is it no? Are you planning to resign the job that pays you $100,000 a 12 months if you are a trustee for Medicare?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, the evaluate of my present actions and my credentials and {qualifications} is one that every one nominees endure and that’s one which led to the president placing my nomination earlier than this physique. I’m grateful for that and if given the chance–
WARREN: I’m not gonna get into why the president nominated you. What I wanna know is, are you gonna preserve a job the place you receives a commission by a for-profit outfit someplace within the neighborhood of $100,000 a 12 months whilst you preserve your authorities trustee job? Are you able to reply that query?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, the function of the trustees–
WARREN: Okay, I’m gonna take that as a “sure” as a result of I’m gonna assume that if you happen to have been gonna give up that job, you’ll be actually comfortable to inform me that proper now earlier than we go into the query of what it means so that you can preserve this job.
Mr. Kouzoukas, as we each know, as a member of the board, company legislation requires you to assist Clover to maximise its earnings. So, for instance, if you happen to highlighted the quantity of fraud that Medicare Benefit undergoes yearly and the way that fraud is undermining the solvency of Medicare, that might result in insurance policies that may restrict the Medicare Benefit program. And if that occurred, Mr. Kouzoukas, would limiting the Medicare Benefit program undercut the profitability of Clover, the corporate that bylaw, you’re speculated to be watching out for?
[SILENCE]
WARREN: That was a query.
KOUZOUKAS: I’m undecided I understood the query–
WARREN: So, my query is, you’re on the board of Clover, you’re legally obligated to attempt to assist Clover, to enhance its profitability over time or no less than maintain its earnings. That’s company legislation 101, proper? So, in case you are additionally serving as a Medicare trustee, I simply wanna be clear right here. If the main target within the Medicare program is on the quantity of fraud that’s at the moment within the Medicare Benefit program, I believe it’s affordable to imagine that might result in lowering the amount of cash that we put into Medicare Benefit, to placing extra restrictions on Medicare Benefit, to saying we’ve gotta put a cop on the beat, possibly lower it out altogether.
What I’m asking you is, would that injure Clover? That’s, wouldn’t it scale back Clover’s profitability?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, I believe all Individuals and I, particularly would share your attentiveness to the questions of fraud–
WARREN: I recognize that, however I requested you a reasonably simple query. Should you’re really gonna be a trustee on behalf of the American individuals and individuals who care concerning the solvency of Medicare, then I believe you oughta be capable of reply – if Medicare at the moment, because it stands, put extra restrictions on Medicare Benefit, would that doubtless lower into the profitability of Clover, the corporate from which you obtain greater than $100,000 in compensation yearly?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, I believe that the query you’re asking–
WARREN: I know the query I’m asking. Might you reply my query, please? You wanna be a trustee for the American individuals. You oughta be capable of reply that query.
KOUZOUKAS: The query you’re asking is one which deserves a larger context concerning the function of the trustee.
WARREN: No! It deserves an reply from you. You wanna be the trustee, the reply the query. If Medicare lower what goes into Medicare Benefit, would that harm Clover’s profitability? That’s not a tough query. And in reality, Clover has already just about answered that in its public paperwork. So, may you give a solution to that, please?
KOUZOUKAS: I believe, Senator, what’s essential to deal with right here–
WARREN: I know what’s essential to deal with right here. That’s why I’m right here, is to ask the questions which can be essential to deal with. Might you reply my query, please?
KOUZOUKAS: Sure, Senator. I believe that, if confirmed, Dr. Newman and I might be an outdoor set of eyes and ears–
WARREN: That shouldn’t be my query. Are you able to reply my query or are you simply flatly refusing?
KOUZOUKAS: Senator, I’d be delighted to–
WARREN: Then reply my query!
KOUZOUKAS: And I believe the query is one that’s, within the context of–
WARREN: No! It’s a query that’s a straight monetary query. You recognize, Mr. Kouzoukas, I believe you assume you’re gonna get away with this by simply not answering the query and never having any clip that admits how a lot cash you’re taking from a personal insurance coverage firm that makes its cash via Medicare Benefit, on the similar second that you simply’re making an attempt to take a public function that can affect whether or not we deal with the fraud in Medicare Benefit, or whether or not we flip a blind eye to it.
Let’s be clear. If Mr. Kouzoukas ignores the fraud, he helps Clover. If he focuses on the fraud, he hurts Clover. The battle of curiosity right here is so massive and so pervasive that there isn’t any motion that Mr. Kouzoukas can take that doesn’t both assist or harm Clover, the corporate that pays him $100,000 a 12 months to take a seat on its board and be careful for the corporate. And there’s no waiver that may change that truth. This sort of battle is stunning and it’s deeply unethical. Not a single different trustee has ever obtained compensation from an insurance coverage firm whereas appearing as a Medicare trustee.
And if you happen to received’t step down from the Clover board, then you need to withdraw your nomination. And if you don’t withdraw, given the clear conflicts posed by your board service, I’ll strongly oppose your nomination and I’ll encourage each different senator on this physique to take action as effectively.
